RACEONOZ Penalty Table

Hope your not reffering to me, as i do not confuse you with being a Mod. with power.
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@stucar17 , my suggestion in regards to the wording of "any contact" was just that, a suggestion, with the sole intention of the wording being reviewed, so as not to waste "The Panel"'s time with unnecessary protests, which in turn could help the process run smoothly.

Maybe a term like "inconsequential contact" may help with a bit of clarity.
Many non-contact sports in the world have a whole lot of "inconsequential contact" , including things like Basketball, Hockey, Netball, & even Motorsport.

@stucar17 "The one thing i dont want to have happen, is our group getting bogged down having to trawl through hours of replays making sure everyone doesnt brake a rule by a tire width !". My 2cents worth if it helps would to put fourth an arbitrator that is elected by the division each season. I know for gt6 it doesn't take that long to watch the race and make an oppion on it I do it quite regularly I personally get much enjoyment on watching how someone raced. On some of the videos sent I'm shocked how that person got away with it eg line crossing Div 1 seem to be epidemic Div 2 & 3 have a similar problem. But when it comes to a tyre width well if the driver thinks he is innocent he can appeal then the mods can get involved as per usual

Having established my position, I can talk about substantive changes now =)

I respectfully disagree with you @arakasi- that 'contact' needs to be defined, for these reasons:

'Contact' is written in the R&R 2.0 only in section 5A(i) and 5A(j). Other references to 'contact' refer to contacting via PM, etc.

'(i) If contact does occur and the guilty driver gains place(s) in result of the contact, the driver in question must:
(i) move off the racing line;
(ii) slow down; and
(iii) allow the innocent driver(s) to pass at the next possible point of the racetrack.

(j) If contact occurs and responsibility for the incident cannot be traced to the defending vehicle, the respective racing positions of drivers involved in the incident prior to the collision must be put back in place.'

'Contact' using its plain and ordinary meaning, refers to touching, no matter how severe an impact.

So let's look at 5A(i) again:

(i) If contact does occur and the guilty driver gains place(s) in result of the contact, ...

It says that: IF there is contact, AND the guilty driver gains place THEN ...
There are thus two elements to the provision:
1. Contact
2. Gains place(s)

If there is only contact, no matter how severe, the rules state that nothing happens. It fails the logic equation.
1. Contact (Yes)
2. Gains place(s) (No)

That's why I disagree with you that 'contact' needs to be defined. I think the rules are perfectly fine using their plain and ordinary meaning.

So let's look at 5A(j):

(j) If contact occurs and responsibility for the incident cannot be traced to the defending vehicle, the respective racing positions of drivers involved in the incident prior to the collision must be put back in place.

It says that: IF there is contact, AND responsibility cannot be traced THEN...
There are thus also two elements to the provision:
1. Contact
2. Responsibility cannot be traced

If there is only contact, no matter how severe, the rules state that nothing happens. it fails the logic equation.
1. Contact (Yes)
2. Responsibility cannot be traced (No) [it CAN be traced to the attacking vehicle]

It also works fine. if you hit someone, and you wait for them, giving the place back, you have performed your requirements under 5A(i) and 5A(j).
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If you scroll down to the Offences List (section 7A), you'll notice that 5A(i) and 5A(j) are only relevant to Careless Driving and Reckless Driving offences.

If you perform 5A(i) and 5A(j), (ie. you make contact but you didn't gain a place, or you make contact but it was the defender's fault) you could get a careless driving offence, which is a warning penalty. If you breach 5A(i) and 5A(j) (ie. you make contact and you don't redress, or you make contact, it's your fault and you gain place), you could get a drivethrough penalty.
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So to sum up, how you define 'contact' is not important under those current provisions, in my opinion.

Thanks for your suggestions though, because it allows us to go deep into the rules and figure out what they are saying. It is very healthy to analyse and talk about the rules, which is why I got rid of those provisions about 'banning discussions of the rules' in my version. That is dictator talk.

Yes what you say is very true. But what I'm saying is where drivers go around the track in full disregard of the track limits over a race the driver can get a exceptional gain just 1/2 sec gain on just one corner could over a race could allow if used on multiple corners 10 sec advantage just on one lap. Now if we know that the race could be reviewed these drivers would then stay to the track limits. Eg if I am at position 5 in a race have stayed to the track limits I review my racing opponent at position 4 and see that driver has not obeyed track limits numerous times then the protest can be applied or an arbitrator who watches said video can apply appropriate penalty/penalties. If it's not enforced why have the rule? Two wheels on the track at all times yes we all make mistakes a mistake is once or twice not numerous times in a race that is flagrant rule bending ( to the point of breaking )

well in that case, lodge a protest and it will be looked at. are you suggesting that every players POV from every race be looked at every week, incase someone has abused track limits? if so that would require every race to be watched multiple times from multiple different POV's. that would be hours upon hours of review for every race. im all for it, but you gotta remember that no one is paid to run any of this, and its for fun afterall. i just think that theres only a certain extent that we can go to checking everything, but we need to have a bit of faith in our fellow racers also.

if someone wants to put there hand up to do all the review necessary to fairly adjudicate it, then cool. (remembering that if thats the case, every single players race must be monitored, or it becomes unfair if some are and some arent monitored)


Basically, I just wanna race. I dont know about everyone else, but its supposed to be fun. I have raced in every division on Pcars in my time, and in general, it has been an awesome way to spend my sunday nights.

I'm only talking about where there is flagrant track limits being broken. Mode rarities don't have to be involved unless there is an appeal. I'm all for the fun as well but we want it to be fair for all not just those who think all should get out of their way because they think the rules don't apply to them "I'm faster so move out of my way " or "I don't have to pay attention to track limits but you do" in both cases rules applied will make for much tidier racing.

Thank you Crunch for taking the time for that. Great explanation on something I thought was a bit off, but I was obviously wrong.

Do you genuinely feel that people think "I'm faster so move out of my way " or "I don't have to pay attention to track limits but you do"? because I've never encountered anything like that except under blue flags in any of my racing here. (in which case, yes move out of the way, because thats what blue flags mean)

Secondly, Of course there needs to be rules, and there is a clear write up of the rules (now in 1 place on Crunch's document) The issue here is how much can legitimately be enforced. The answer, is the protest system. if you feel someone is abusing the rules of ROOZ, then get the footage and send it to the team (when they are announced) who will look at it and decide, based on the rules, what/if punishment is needed.

Unfortunately, there will always be people who will cut when they can without being seen, to gain time. Theres nothing that can be done for that outside of monitoring every persons race, which we would literally need a full time steward to do.

I will say this though. All of these rules are standard racing procedure, and anyone who acts untowardly, or blantantly cheats, WILL be dealt with. The mods can only look at what is put infront of them.

I want the racing to be as clean and fair as possible, but i also dont expect a full FIA approved stewarding system just so i can have some fun with a bunch of decent blokes on any given night. We are not racing for World Championships, or multi million dollar deals etc. all we can do is put the set of rules out there, and hope that people follow them. if someone is seen to not be following them, then get the clip and inform us. we can only do the best we can with the resources we have, to keep it fair and clean.

But now it has me thinking of all the protests I could have lodged, but havnt (and still wouldn't, as I personally don't mind "firm but fair" put on me), but I am sure others will now take those words to the extreme.

yeah im the same man. ive been involved in a few 'sketchy' incidents, but they are what i would call racing incidents, and not worthy of protesting. Firm but fair works well for me.

Lets not forget that we're here to race for fun, as the majority of us aren't able to race in real life. If every race had people being forced to rewatch the races multiple times from many POV's, I can say with confidence they wouldn't stick around lol.

Im sure the mods aren't planning a team to trawl through replays. Rules are there because if your doing it and your caught your penalized. Not sure why people are getting so caught up. We all know an incident from a deliberate breach. I doubt the mods wanted a Stewarts group to redefine the rules but just review incidents put before them.

I literally said the exact same things to the stewards during my protest last season.

The exact words I sent to the stewards was: "You've interpreted these rules strictly. This is fine, and I do not wish to dispute such a finding.

However, I impute that such a finding has implications. It determines that any contact from a car holding causal blame that gains a position must be held accountable under rule viii). This is contrary to certainly my own beliefs concerning the rules, as that means unequivocally that I have had many a protest claim available to me throughout this season which I have not invoked. The mantra 'rubbing is racing' comes to my mind."

It was certainly implied from my last post about defining 'contact' that if you make an overtake, and it's not clean, you are unequivocally in breach of 5A(i):

1. Contact (Yes)
2. Gain place (Yes)
(unless you redress: section 5A(i)(i), 5A(i)(ii) and 5A(i)(iii) for details)
Section 7A - Offences: Reckless Driving - 25 second penalty.

It's harsh.

But to link this discussion with Wolfy's discussion about monitoring:

That's the way it should be.

You need to think about whether an incident is bad enough for you that you want to protest it. Instead of having people comb through the replays trying to adhere to rules like a true 'Nanny State', the protest system allows people to make up their own mind on whether the incident hurt them, their race or the community standards. If it wasn't a protest system, it wouldn't work - as Jono said, people would leave.

The rules allow you to take it to the stewards, if you feel aggrieved. If you don't feel aggrieved, don't waste your own time and energy, the stewards time and energy, or the emotions, time and energy of the person you are complaining about, and instead, just let it slide and have a private, friendly word with that person. =) Good karma. Good racing.

So all in all, if you can't make a clean pass, you're risking getting sent to the stewards. Simple.

I genuinely believe that there are certain Drivers that think they are faster. So when they are stuck behind a slower driver they feel the need to overcome that obstacle at the demise of the slower driver. That slower driver may be having an awesome battle with another slow driver. And then the faster driver may ruin their entire race because of his attitude "I'm faster get outta my way." Because there is no consequences.

But there is and always has been consequences. Did you protest against that driver then? If yes, then what was the end result? If no, then dont complain about it if you didnt think it was worth your time to protest. All im saying is that these rules are nothing new at all. As crunch said, the rules themselves are literally unchanged from what they were. So the massive discussion about whats gonna change is silly really. Nothing changes. It just becomes more transparent, which is a good thing.

Sorry for my lack of punctuation, im typing this from my phone lol

Gt6 doesn't run penalties. Has it ever thou or is it just to unpredictable. Because i know you can be run into and recieve the time penalty.

I think the easiest answer is to let the game look softer cut track penalties. May not be perfect but would save a lot of time proofing one way or the other through replays etc and the penalty is dished out in the race so no need to review post race.