Red Flag Rules - Discussion

Discussion in 'GTLOZ Past Seasons' started by Hatfield, Aug 26, 2019.

  1. Hatfield

    Hatfield GT7 League & Teams Championship Organiser Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    ROOZers, I need your assistance.

    At the Bathurst Enduro round, @CaptainRisky21 has his race ruined by a pit stop glitch.

    As far as I know/am told, the following pit stop glitches can occur:
    • refueling stops automatically and your car is released from the pits (can happen after any amount of fuel)
    • you are released from the pit stop and the lap counter does not count the lap you should have just completed (so you lose a lap)
    This thread is for the discussion of any possible rules we can implement to red flag the race in the instance of this, or similar incidents happening.

    Some things to consider:
    • should disconnections be included in these rules (are they simply a 'network' glitch affecting someone?)
    • how can we prove a valid glitch instead of user error (mis-press button) or hardware error (button activating on its own - poor button connection)
    • does it need to be proven at the time, or can it be proven post race?
    • does it need to be proven at all?
    • who makes the call that a race be red flagged? (room captains? any driver affected? only one person, or more than one?)
    • how far into a race can a red flag be called?
    • how many laps after an incident can a red flag be called?
    • If a red flag is approved, what happens? race ends on the last completed lap? race rescheduled? grid reset and continue for the remaining laps?
    This is for ANY ROOZers to contribute on, as this topic can affect any game we race on.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
    CaptainRisky21 likes this.
  2. emmo46

    emmo46 Steward Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    If the whole field is not in a chat it could be hard to implement. How far into the race will this be possible as generally the first pit stop is close to half way. What happens if there is a red flag, does the race get restarted with positions as they were before the glitch struck or is the race rescheduled for a later date.
    Hatfield likes this.
  3. Hatfield

    Hatfield GT7 League & Teams Championship Organiser Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    I'll try and amend other questions that appear to the OP list
  4. CaptainRisky21

    CaptainRisky21 World Champion Gold Member

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    It needs to be an honesty based system in my eyes. If you are affected by one of the pit glitches mentioned, I feel the driver should call for a red flag mentioning their glitch, and immediately the race is stopped. The affected driver should also save their footage through the share menu to prove the glitch, should it be requested.

    If someone is proven to be asking for a red flag for personal gain, with no race ending glitch, a race ban seems sufficient.
    JonoStan96 likes this.
  5. Rolz

    Rolz ACC Nutter Team Raceonoz Gold Member

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    depends on how far into the race one is, but for me if a pit stop glitch happens it's a fair way in and probably be treated as a hardware failure, PC crash or some similar glitch where u put it into the bad luck bucket wasn't ur night... :coffee:
  6. razor4797

    razor4797 Professional Gold Member

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    I think if it is in the first half of the race then a red flag could be used.
    The difficult thing from there is, obviously you restart from the last lap completed, but do you bunch the field back up like a safety car or do you keep the intervals from the last completed lap?
  7. REVO_Bryan

    REVO_Bryan Professional Super ROOZ

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    @CaptainRisky21 can grow a pair. :p In all seriousness though, we have precedence in terms of game glitches. In GT6 we had a glitch whereby a driver would get stuck in pit lane. It was not deemed enough for a red flag situation back then, and the effect of the glitch is arguably worse.

    PS: What did we do when the invisible wall glitch in Project Cars was prevalent?
    LennonLegend1993 likes this.
  8. Noxrai

    Noxrai Professional Gold Member

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    When I was in project cars, glitches were treated as car failures. Glitches were pretty prevalent in the early days. So stopping almost every race would have gotten pretty annoying. GT Sport is fairly polished in regards to glitches. Very few nowadays. So I think it would be ok to treat the rare times it does happen to someone as a random track incident that brings out the safety car. Restart the race as rolling start minus how ever many laps.

    I can see how it could completely change the outcome of a race if this were to be implemented. But the same could be said if the driver never got the glitch in the first place.
    You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
    Kephin_07 likes this.
  9. Matthyus

    Matthyus GTLOZ Results Steward Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    Who outside of div 1 has actually experienced said glitches? Thus far I've only heard of some div 1 people mention it. Is it perhaps it's a bad game install? Software behaves in many different ways if a portion of it is installed wonky. Worth a shot.
  10. NAACS

    NAACS Professional

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    Has anyone watched the replay? I have. That seemed to indicate a possible reason for the situation/topic of conversation.
  11. T F Eccles

    T F Eccles Professional Gold Member

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    Me. As I posted in the Div 1 thread it happened to me in last season's enduro at the Nurb GP track. Tank filled to about 1/3 then stopped and I was off out of the pits. I just adjusted my stop strategy.

    I know it wasn't me because you'll recall from round 1 last season in the EF7 at Magiorre II GP that @LennonLegend1993 accidentally hit a button and left the pits with less fuel than he required - well after that I ensure I keep my feet and hands away from the controls until I'm ready to go or the tank is full, at which point it send you out anyway.
  12. Tristan Jones

    Tristan Jones Team Driver Gold Member

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    Me.

    I had it happen twice - the first I was sure I wasn't hitting anything, but hands were on the controller, so maybe a nervous twitch/ press. After asking how that happened, accidently pressing was suggested, ever since I have treated the controller like a loaded gun - then it happened again a few weeks later, and I knew I had proved it wasn't me. Hasn't happened since, and that was quite a few seasons ago, I was on the controller!

    I also had a hardware issue I spent a while chasing down - I got some controller extenders that were overriding my wheel, and giving the appearance of not beng able to accelerate, mostly (randomly) from pits. Took them off and the issue stopped.

    However, last week during mid week practice with some div 1 guys (they had an open room), I joined their lobby mid race. I watched the race, and was ready to join track as soon as they finished - as soon as join track button was available, I pressed it - then when the car pulled out, it autopiloted into the wall down pit straight, then it tried to reverse to correct - I was amused for about 10 seconds, then exited and re-entered, and all was fine. I put it down to a "glitch" caused by joining too soon after a race and the game not loading properly. Had not thought of since until reading this thread.

    Edit -

    For the record imho, I think glitches should be probably be treated like hardware/ connection issues, and that they are just some rare bad luck. But perhaps there is an avenue to call a red flag and have a rolling restart with remaining laps if the affected user is a championship/ race contender (top half of grid?) in the last half/ quarter of a race?
    JonoStan96, Kephin_07 and Noxrai like this.
  13. fezza

    fezza Team Driver

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    These rare glitches should just be accepted as part of random events that can occur in real racing as well. If it's constantly happening to the same person then they need to look at their equipment.
    stucar17, KoAStR and REVO_Bryan like this.
  14. T F Eccles

    T F Eccles Professional Gold Member

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    tl;dr Proof is tricky, if red flags are to be allowed it will have to be honesty based. I my experience true glitches are rare and should be treated like user and hardware errors as above, it's bad luck, you have deal with it and move on.

    Disconnects should not be included - we've already got guidelines covering that so it's up to participants to make sure their connection is as best as they can make it - notwithstanding external factors beyond user control. It's the risk we all take in participating in this kind of online gaming.

    Proof is the tricky part here - as Risky says if anything it will have to be an honesty system. Do you set up your PS4 so that on entering the pits you double tap the share button to start a recording? Something else to remember to do. A hardware error unintended button press will look like a legit button press in a video clip anyway.

    A user error e.g. button mis-press is entirely the users fault so you have to chalk that up to experience and get on with it. I've done it myself in the past during dailies and had to live it.

    A hardware error e.g. an unintended button press or spurious signal equivalent is somewhat in the control of user. Your DS4 controller can be turned off, although not if you wish to participate in a party chat via the audio jack in a controller. They can be put aside out of reach. In the past I've had such issue with a controller on my PS3 however I was able to remedy that with the help of information found on the internet. Hardware errors should be considered like car failures as they are, mostly, in the hands of the user and somewhat preventable.

    So can you prove beyond reasonable doubt it wasn't user or hardware related?
    stucar17 likes this.
  15. Bluemoon

    Bluemoon Professional Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    I feel that we should take these glitches as just hardware failures. it is unfortunate, but :):):):) happens.
    It is too much trouble restarting as it will mean the room host will have a number of things to ensure that is done in the right sequence so that everyone is back on track in the right order. There are also those who do not read their chat if a race is called off, wasting a lot of time. Ultimately, there will be someone who would be unhappy with the situation.
    REVO_Bryan likes this.
  16. REVO_Bryan

    REVO_Bryan Professional Super ROOZ

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    To sum up my thoughts: it’s more trouble than it’s worth. In Risky’s case it wasn’t even a race-ending situation. He could’ve gone out for 2 more laps and pitted again and tried to adjust his strategy.
  17. LennonLegend1993

    LennonLegend1993 Team Driver

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    This. To me, we race for a bit of fun, well most of us do. If a race is called off 16 laps into a 52 lap race, thats a bit excessive in my eyes.
    What happened was :):):):), but its not the end of the world.
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  18. X3rx3s44

    X3rx3s44 Rookie

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    The suggestion I have is would it be feasible that in the event a red flag is called, rather than everyone exiting the race and returning to the lobby, could they instead stop on track where they are once the call has been made to have minimal impact on strategy and the flow of the race?
    Then people on alternative strategies aren't disadvantaged either?
    This would also avoid the room host having the headache of rearranging grid order for the restart and once it has been deemed time to resume, all cars could proceed to 'grid up' on track and have a rolling restart once they all reach the start/finish line much like how we start our WET endurance races?

    A possible penalty could be that the person who experienced the glitch must restart from the rear of the field? This should help mitigate any incentive for people to try and use a red flag call for personal gain, however they must also be prepared to provide video evidence if so requested.
    Additionally, this may make people less inclined to call a red flag for minor glitches as the rear of field penalty could be worse than putting up with the inconvenience but still affords the option for someone who experiences a major glitch to remain in the race.

    In the case of @CaptainRisky21's glitch, he could also be allowed to re-pit and re-fuel (but not change tyres) with no penalty and park at the end of pit lane until the field has passed after the restart so the rear of field penalty still effectively applies.

    Just my thoughts on the matter.
  19. Hatfield

    Hatfield GT7 League & Teams Championship Organiser Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    If 2 drivers are battling and side-by-side at the time the red flag is called, how do we know who is in front? especially if both drivers think they were in front at the time it was called
  20. X3rx3s44

    X3rx3s44 Rookie

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    In the case of a contested position as you've noted then perhaps revert to 'traditional' red flag rules and determine their positions by position (relative to one and other) at the start of red flag lap?..
    In all seriousness, even with cars stopping on track and restarting as I suggested above, there is no reason everyone couldn't re-grid in position order at the start of the red flag lap if simply stopping on track will cause disputes - which 99% of the time I doubt it will.
    Just a little common sense (which I know isn't that common) would make the whole process very simple.
    Kephin_07 likes this.