Sunday League New Format Test Qualifying Times List

Discussion in 'Sunday Night Gran Turismo' started by Hatfield, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. StigsTC

    StigsTC Team Driver

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    But wouldn't needlessly demoting faster drivers to lower rooms completely defeat the point of this organisational system to try and generate the most competitive lobbies for everyone involved? The Room 2 would likely be a Keedan-esque walkover if any of the top half of a regular Div 1 season failed to qualify.
    The end goal is closer racing, the system exists to incentivise everyone giving their best in order to most accurately sort racers, but every week someone has to be in room 2, regardless if they like it or worked harder for it. Reads harsh but we've all been there busting ass all week or longer and not coming home with a result we really deserved.
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  2. LennonLegend1993

    LennonLegend1993 Rookie

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    I love the system and the concept but with the potential for faster racers to not qualify and be placed into their ‘normal’ division does throw a spanner in the works. These might not be the best ideas, but I thought I’d share a few ideas and whether or not they help, is another question.
    - people who don’t qualify by Friday are sorted into a ‘bottom’ room, and race for the least amount of points. This may suck and the room might not be even, but this would only push the need for qualification for future weeks.
    - people who don’t qualify, are sorted into their ‘normal’ room, and race for half points or something like that.

    Or, just completely ignore this :)
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  3. Hatfield

    Hatfield Teams Championship Chairman Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    I do like this concept...
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  4. Hatfield

    Hatfield Teams Championship Chairman Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    Look at the round 1 times split at the moment.
    I have split the rooms evenly and if another qualifying time comes in from a driver in room 2 or 3 which fits in room 1, then someone will drop from room 1 to 2 who hasn't submitted a time
  5. Ozglenn

    Ozglenn Rookie Gold Member

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    I think it's good if someone does a qualifying time that gets them in a higher div room and the lowest person in the room drops down .......but if you don't put a time in you should start in the lowest room for the least points otherwise what's the point ....
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  6. Crunch

    Crunch Team Driver

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    It's a test season, so I'll roll with whatever is decided.

    However, I have found this qualifying thing largely redundant. I agree with Ozglenn that people who don't qualify should not benefit if the new system being trialed this season was to encourage qualification times. That hasn't worked well. Unfortunately, if people who haven't qualified get disincentivised, they will be less likely to attend at all.

    ---

    Here's a new proposal:
    Instead of operating a quasi-relegation system using race performances (as has been done for several years apparently), operate a relegation system formally using a combined delta of the qualifying times. As in, collate each individual drivers time difference to the pole time, rank the totals in a list, and divvy up the divisions like that. A non-qualification equates to a standard 10 second delta.

    Such a system would incentivise practice because if you don't pre-qualify, you'll get shoved into lower divisions whether you like it or not. You can't rely upon race potential to maintain your division.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, the idea was to encourage practice? If so, consider my proposal. If not, was the idea to divide divisions by individual track abilities? In that case, the current system is absolutely fine, but drivers who don't qualify must be put in the bottom division, not to punish or hurt those drivers, but to reward the ones who put the time in.

    EDIT: Basically, don't be the FIA and change things (especially qualifying just for change's sake. New systems need to be rationalised according to a desired effect.
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  7. Ozglenn

    Ozglenn Rookie Gold Member

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    I don't know of any motor sport that if you don't turn up for qualifying the organisers would say hey he is a fast guy he deserves to be up the front so we will put him in front of all these other racers .......
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  8. Hatfield

    Hatfield Teams Championship Chairman Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    the whole idea was to have close rooms, not throw obviously quick drivers into division 3

    @LennonLegend1993's idea of less points for non-qualifiers does appeal though.

    I think I would go with points as normal for all drivers who qualified, and then those who didn't can score behind them.
    That way the racing is still close, but qualifying is incentivized as you need to do it to challenge for a championship

    ...and so OP updated:
    -If you fail to qualify, you will score points behind all those who did submit a qualifying time regardless of room/finishing position
    emmo46 and StigsTC like this.
  9. StigsTC

    StigsTC Team Driver

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    Not what I said or implied but sure.
    This is effectively pre-qualifying. Qualy to sort grid position takes place in the lobby as per normal doesn't it? So you don't get gifted any real position you can't earn, because you still have to back it up in the lobby and again in the race.
    Interesting solution hat, will produce a funny championship chart to see someone finish top 10 every week and finish all but last on points.
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  10. Captain_Risky_21

    Captain_Risky_21 Team Driver Gold Member

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    OR instead we could just do what we have always done but submit a divisional qualifying time in that seasons car. Some people are slow in an Evo GT3 but unbeatable in a Gr.1. Maybe that would provide closer racing and stop the whole "he forgot to qualify this week so he cant be in this room but he can go in this one but he earns less points even though he won the race by 30 seconds" buisness.
    Crunch likes this.
  11. StigsTC

    StigsTC Team Driver

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    Eh it seems to work. If you are going to arrive and drive like I have many a time you aren't really taking the championship seriously you're just there for the good battles, so losing champ points doesn't really sway your night.
    However it does potentially hurt anyone who gets caught out by busy work week not having the time to run a pre-qual ruining the championship for them. But hey, test season to test stuff.
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  12. Crunch

    Crunch Team Driver

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    ^this
    ^this

    The new system cannot cause 'closer racing', so it is a redundant system. It feels like we're tackling an issue without proper causation.
    --
    [I'm going on a big tangent, so feel free to skip to the end.]


    Using Aristotelian logic, you can convert this enthymeme into a syllogism:

    1. Close rooms equals great racing. [unspoken premise in the original enthymeme]
    2. Close rooms is not achieved by (ie. does not equal) throwing drivers into a division they are not suited for.
    Therefore, throwing drivers into a division they are not suited for does not result in great racing.

    As far as I'm concerned, both premise are inaccurate. Close rooms (where drivers of a different speed or ability to you are deliberately excluded from racing with you) does not achieve greater racing. It should be self-evident that pooling drivers of a similar skill together is far more likely to achieve great racing than to re-allocate and exclude drivers of a different skill. We want to encourage close racing, not discourage it by siphoning off drivers of a somewhat different skill.

    --
    Skill cannot be controlled by division allocation, therefore, we should maximise the amount of drivers on track to have the best chances of giving everyone a great racing experience.

    In my opinion, the divisions are too diffuse, and it could be closer by simply lowering the division count from 3 to 2. That means more people are likely to have someone else to race against. Why have an intricate system to allocate drivers to a division, when it's a lot easier to stick everyone on the same tarmac?

    Two divisions - Division 1 and Division 2. Problem solved.
  13. LennonLegend1993

    LennonLegend1993 Rookie

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    That means a maximum or 32 drivers.
  14. LennonLegend1993

    LennonLegend1993 Rookie

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    I personally think this is the best middle ground for everyone. Closer rooms, based on qualifying times, and anyone who doesn’t set a qualifying lap can be filtered into their ‘normal’ room or level so to speak, but does not effect the possible points result for someone who qualified ahead of time.

    Again, this is a test series, to test things. Everyone just needs to calm down (it is just a game after all).
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  15. incey

    incey Professional Gold Member

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    the trial was to determine if the new system (of allocating drivers to divisions) worked better than the old system. It hasn't even been tried yet and look at all the feedback! and it has been bastardised before getting off the ground.
    initially
    qually by friday or race at the back (which will admittedly probably result in tantrums but whatever)
    to now
    don't put yourself out, we will fallback to the 'old' system to reward poor performance. (signup for a trial and then don't participate in the main function of the trial? wtf?)
    to say someone could have a busy week and shouldn't be relegated is a bit rich. there was heaps of time for pre-season qually. that was the whole point of preseason qually...in case you had a busy week mid season. and the success of the trial depended on people making the effort
    allocating drivers to races when they couldn't get a qually lap done in 4 weeks undermines the purpose of the trial and almost causes its failure.
    my impression was that the trial isn't about the racing as much as testing a new system of qualifying, which was thought to lead to better race rooms. if the new system of qualifying doesn't work, (the week aint over yet so all is not lost), then the trial that uses a bastardised system of qualifying will be testing a different thing than it was set up to test.
    in saying all of that i really appreciate the effort hat and johhno are putting in to sort it out, i just wish the trial had been supported 100% by those that signed up
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  16. Hatfield

    Hatfield Teams Championship Chairman Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    Some good points being written.

    A few bullet points:
    • this is a test season of 3 rounds, relax :)
    • everyone who signed up new they should be qualifying and had plenty of time to have a crack
    • drivers who can't be bothered qualifying obviously aren't 100% invested in a championship and so won't mind lack of points as long as they race drivers who are around their skill level
    • @Crunch please use a thesaurus so I don't need a dictionary :p
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  17. Hatfield

    Hatfield Teams Championship Chairman Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    Also, there is still 2 nights available to jump on and run a couple of laps to submit a time... not a difficult task
  18. LennonLegend1993

    LennonLegend1993 Rookie

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    Adding the ability to just set up your own room, and screenshot your lap time (in live timing screen or whatever it is called) makes this super achievable.
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  19. StigsTC

    StigsTC Team Driver

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    The busy week argument doesn't really apply to a test season over the holidays, you want to run 1000km of testing for each round? Sure easy as, all the time in the world! But it becomes an issue if the concept were to be undertaken as the regular season in future, with people who sign up just in time for the meet n greet.
    I apologise for extrapolating the usage of the test format to its potential issues in full season in future, I always jump ahead and look beyond the immediate as that's where all the problems usually lie lol.
    Regardless it is kind of silly to suggest that the top half of Div 1 should race in any other room than top room pre-qual or not. Its one of those situations where the letter of the law doesn't achieve the intent of the law to place all DNPQ in room 3.
    For a first attempt, docking championship points is a good start, but a more refined solution will probably be required if the format proves successful as we all hope it will.

    Also Hat, absolute gem of a post. :thumbsup:

    Back to lurking I go...
    Hatfield likes this.
  20. deedz_aus

    deedz_aus Rookie Gold Member

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    ill get my times to you tonight.