GT7 - Future Seasons ideas thread

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sunday Night League' started by Crunch, Sep 13, 2020.

  1. Crunch

    Crunch Team Driver

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    The following is a post I originally wrote for the 'GT Sport - Future Seasons ideas thread',** however once I started writing the post it turned into a very different type of post so I decided to make a fresh thread. Admins can feel free to move it if they would prefer.

    **Hyperlinks marked by double asterisks.

    There is a TLDR section at the end.
    -------

    I'm just popping on because I've been looking at various iRacing leagues and couldn't help but think about the state of ROOZ generally.

    I signed up for Season 1 on Gran Turismo 6 and the season format here has been identical since I joined in early 2014 - that's six years ago. I don't think the premier Australian Gran Turismo league has grown with the times well at all, while Gran Turismo itself has shaken up their online racing offering dramatically with GT Sport in that same time - for better or worse.

    On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the fact that ROOZ has stuck around for 10+ years and it's probably due in no short part to the strength of the existing systems and format, no matter how much myself and lots of other people think the systems here in particular are weak compared to rival leagues.

    There is something to be said of the fact that the same season structure, race formats, and systems cause a bit of fatigue if you're a regular driver. Once you've contested 5+ ROOZ seasons, there isn't much left for the league to offer you. Sure, you can switch game as many drivers have, but what if I am not interested in playing Project CARS or Assetto? I predict that many people would respond to the fatigue and say, 'ROOZ does have an iRacing team' or 'we have a [insert your DIRT Rally 2.0 / F1 game here] league running, you should try it out!' While valid, I think that misses the point of what a league is about. Assetto players don't hang around the GT threads (much), and that applies for every other game. Each game on ROOZ is completely segmented, and it would be accurate as far as I can tell that most of the non-GT series originated from people who were getting tired of Gran Turismo and/or the stagnant ROOZ Gran Turismo season, so put up an idea for a separate league on a different game resulting in great success.

    Ask yourself genuinely: is the ROOZ season / format / systems / rules in-line with its reputation and status in the Australian Gran Turismo community?

    I would answer that question negatively. I remember writing identical posts to this one during late 2016 - 2017 in anticipation for GT Sport when there was a massive push to reform the driving rules 'Sporting Code' and the stewarding system, which I have felt has been under serving us for years and years (I discuss how the Sporting Code under serves us below).

    That resulted in the Penalty table, ** which as far as I can tell was a minor success, but did not fulfill everything that we thought it should. I have zero idea whether it is even adhered to at this point because I've haven't been racing for months now. I also found it interesting how that thread had multiple posts from Sam Blacklock and Beau Albert who are both Altus Esports ** drivers who have moved way beyond ROOZ into brighter and better pastures on iRacing. ROOZ's ability for 10+ years to foster talent belies the quality of service that ROOZ offers.

    The fact that the 'Sporting Code' is just a forum thread is also astounding. I tried to help rectify this in 2017 with the Collated Rules and Regulations document ** which is linked a few posts down in the Racing Rules ** forum thread. That document came out of a desire to collate the growing list of rules and policies that seem to be added in an adhoc fashion by way of forum thread. The recent 'Conduct Notice' ** indelibly forms a part of the entire league policy akin to a 'collateral contract' **, only adding to the growing list of policy documents. Many will say that this is not a problem, however it is actually a massive problem that results in rules and policies not being read by everyone due to there being way too many different documents that all say similar things.

    Having a central document (otherwise known as a constitution) provides important accessibility when reading about the policy and rules of a league. Most if not all leagues outside of ROOZ have one. I am NOT endorsing or encouraging ANYONE to sign up to a different league (because I doubt the racing would be better quality outside of ROOZ, otherwise I wouldn't be here posting 6 years after I joined), but here's an example from a rival league: link. ** [I have suspicions this by far my most controversial link, so if there are problems with this link, please remove it and that one sentence without removing the entirety of the thread/post unless there are other reasons for doing so.]

    For another example, the iRacing Sporting Code ** is a revered primary sporting document.. It establishes the legitimacy and professionalism of iRacing as a regulator and sanctioning body of competition, akin to any other motorsport regulator and sanctioning body like the FIA, CAMS, etc. RaceOnOz is a regulator and sanctioning body like any other, however it operates on an open invitation platform, with many more years of service than other rival leagues.

    The idea of ROOZ as a 'Pub' ** (derived from the Latin publica or 'public') has been touted for years around here, and pubs should have readily available and accessible rules for reading from the public who attend. While some connotations of a pub written in the post are factually incorrect under law, it is the invocations of camaraderie and common interest in attending the pub that the metaphor seeks to invoke; we come to the pub because we want to, not because we have to. Let's make the pub the best pub it can be.

    ------
    I hope that ROOZ can innovate a bit more on the Gran Turismo side. The format has stayed the same for a very long time.

    Here's some ideas that I would like to see debated and dumped at the least, and implemented at the most:

    1. An entry fee that goes into a prize pool for the victors at the end of the season. This would encourage attendance which ROOZ has a problem with. There have been field of psychology journal studies done (unfortunately no link to any studies from me =P ) that suggest paid services are valued higher than an identical service of lower cost or even completely free. A nominal entry fee of $5 per season, for example, divvied up at the end of the season would firmly establish ROOZ as the premium Australian regulator.

    2. A proper PDF containing the Sporting Code and website policies and Codes of Conduct. The fact that the rules written 9 years ago still makes mention to the Whirlpool forum speaks volumes for how desperately this is needed. Here are some examples I wrote 3 years ago:

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MU6DaFNxrctVa1lg8gUYXbLWj4zBcXjV?usp=sharing

    [These documents are my copyright and cannot be used without permission].

    3. A formal relegation based system - ie. the top two or three drivers of a division are formally promoted to the next division and that is the only way you can enter Div 1. Divs 2 - 5 or however many divisions there are are open for placement based on their qualification time. I've been advocating this idea for years. It is a system akin to the English premier league. It creates a proper goal and privilege for driving in the top division, and also means that the lowest two competitors in div 1 get relegated and cannot enter again unless they are promoted again from Div 2. While this sounds punishing, it would encourage attendance and involvement in the community due to having to maintain your place in Div 1. It also creates interest, as with teams in the English Premier league who lose their spot in the premier league and fight hard to get it back. It creates an achievement. Some would argue that the open slather nature of div 1 is a strength whereby top drivers can drop in and out, but I firmly believe that those drivers are not the ones that foster community and camaraderie. Further, there is no reason that we cannot devise dispensation rules for when top drivers have obligations and they want or need to pull out for a few seasons or months at a time. That would be overly restrictive, and relegation would only occur if you genuinely come in the bottom two. Drivers who earn their spot should be rewarded.

    4. Formal and proper teams instead of the current bidding system. Teams that have existing hierarchies are able to come in and manage their selection as required. This would create a proper history or friendly rivalries between teams that are not superficial. The current team rosters change every season, but with a proper team system, the teams championship could actually mean something akin to a Constructors Championship in its prestige. The existing team names can easily transition over to a new system.

    5. Non-fixed setup series. Many will say that the community events have catered to this, and while this is absolutely true, community events suffer heavily worse attendance than official series, which is not fun for anyone.

    6. Reformed stewarding system. Enough has been said about this already.

    7. Heightened promotional activities. More live streaming, more youtube, more socials. These things drive investment from the community as well as new members, and other leagues do a much better job of this. ROOZ used to have regular podcasts and stuff (or maybe still does!). The league needs better integration in its promotion with the community because that is another driver of incentive and participation.

    And finally:

    8. A shake-up of the format. We've run a single car, for ~7 week seasons with one enduro, one sprint round with a reverse grid, and one wet weather round (lol) for years, and it has become too stale for people like myself who have done and seen it all before. Small tweaks to the formula go a mile in maintaining interest. Surely someone has floated a dual car series before? ANYTHING to make it just a little bit different.
    -----

    If you read all of that, then, you are a valuable attendee of the pub.

    I did not write this to ruffle any feathers, or cause chaos; I merely started writing a post and I got incredibly carried away. I am fully retired from GT Sport, but I will be no doubt return some day.

    TLDR; please change the familiar ROOZ formula to keep things fresh, professional, and representative of a long 10 year history.
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  2. Viperzed

    Viperzed Professional Gold Member

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    Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say here, There's a few points that should be addressed.
    1. Entry Fee
    I don't think majority of the driver base would be willing to hand over something even as small as $5 to race. Whilst I agree that paid services are held in higher esteem, this shouldn't become anything exclusive.

    3. Relegation/Promotion
    Couldn't agree more. Not a single bad thing to say about it.

    5. Non Fixed setups
    Whilst I agree with the concept, It can't happen. Part of the appeal of Rooz is the arrive and drive format. No one has the time, energy or commitment to spend their week tuning a season car for one 45 min race and then do it all over again. The low grids in community events are partially because of having open setups, and send a lot of people without the time to perfect them looking for something better. Setups work in races like Jonos WET series because the gaps between races are huge and 3 hour races require a proper setup to be viable.

    8. Format shake up
    Sure. But how lol. Dual car doesn't work. The PD Bop system is horribly flawed and we've seen before in WET that no matter how much time you put into a bop, it will never be perfect.

    Thanks for posting this, good to start now.
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  3. Kieran_B33

    Kieran_B33 Team Driver

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    Can you elaborate on your teams championship idea? I'm not sure im following what you're trying to say.

    I agree with viper on number 8. Dual/tri/multi car seasons wouldn't really work imo. PCARS2 did do that last season and you can clearly see Porsche and Ferrari were stand outs and Bentley was very off. I think it would be worth asking the PCARS2 mods if it was a success enough to be a viable format in the future.
  4. StigsTC

    StigsTC Team Driver

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    First part, have to agree, 1 BoP for 78 circuit configurations (idk how many it actually is) just doesn't cut it, before you add in varying powertrains, 3 compounds of tyre, differing fuel and tyre multipliers.
    Regarding a BoP never being perfect, true no BoP is ever "perfect", but you can get a damn good one going. Most issues with BoP are relatively manageable. The WET specifically has suffered from having 1 car sneak through the cracks in a larger field of up to 16 individual models or having cars with drastically different battle potential on track even when lap times are almost identical. Mostly it comes down to having too many variables to manage, just as we see in FIA series races.
    A really good BoP is between 2 or 3 cars with similar characteristics. When you've got cars 1-2km/h apart, similar tyre wear, similar economy you can balance them far more precisely over a race distance, not perfect but to a point where the best drive on the day will come out ahead.
    However, when it comes down to reducing variables, the simplest way is to just run 1 make. For Rooz sunday league trying to balance 2 cars over 7 tracks in 7 weeks across up to 5 divisions of driver requires far too much time to work out correctly to account for qualifying pace, fuel economy, tyre usage, combat potential and lap times, and as much as it would be cool, I can't see it realistically working as intended. I agree with your outcome, but I disagree on how we get there.

    In regards to tuning.
    As much as I loved that first season of tuning with a car that turned, it eventuated not as well as I'd hoped. The art of tuning for a weekly series used to be you build a setup for track 1, and then just tweaked the gearbox, maybe the spring rates for the rest of the season as usually you had most of what you wanted sorted track to track. Since GTSport however, the finesse for finding the window is so much more touchy and a decent setup can become a dog at the next venue, leading to way too much time stuck in a setup hole instead of just driving and racing.

    Maybe you do 1 round as the tuning round for the season instead of doing the whole season as tuning? Gives everyone a bit of experience with tuning and a chance to learn without having every single race feel like a wasted opportunity because you either don't have the time or the knowledge to do the best job possible.

    Nah, I just lurk and am a just a fan of your work.
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  5. stucar17

    stucar17 Moderator Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    Hey Crunch...Appreciate your long and detailed post.
    Change can be good, but only if it appeals to the masses ;)

    I do understand where you are coming from with your post, and in fact, there have been numerous times of the last 5 or 6 seasons in PCARS2 where i have approached both the mod team and senior drivers about a change up of the regs for a refresh of what we have done for so long. The overwhelming response was 'if it aint broke dont fix it'

    I am sure you are aware that i havent driven GT leagues for quite some time, but regardless, the same philosophy has been the basis of the PCARS 1 and 2 leagues for approx 20 seasons. That involves all your points, including formats etc so lets go through your points from the angle of PCARS leagues.

    1. Weaker than other leagues - In what way ? Remember that we are exclusively Australasian and New zealand based so in my humble opinion, 5 divisions in both GTS and PCARS 2 (with pretty good grid numbers in both) isnt a bad thing after so many seasons. We do have a lot of competition locally, but having looked at a lot of those leagues over the last few years most have the same 'issues' that we do. Ill elaborate in later points

    2. Driver fatigue - Once you've contested 5+ ROOZ seasons, there isn't much left for the league to offer you... The thing that the league 'offers' is racing in a format that has stood the test of time. 10 + years, with many long term and returning members. There are many that move on, but that is for a range of reasons, anything from Game fatigue, a change in personal circumstance, a dislike of the rules and regs, personal clashes and rough driving. The bulk of our PCARS2 drivers have come across from the GT leagues, and those drivers (myself included) were looking for a change from GT. I dont think this is the thread to discuss the pros and cons of wither game, but im pretty confident that a lot of the PCARS2 drivers would not be involved with ROOZ if there wasnt the option to race something other than GTS. The would be lost to us, and from conversations in the past im confident they wouldnt be in another league racing GTS in another format.

    3. Is the ROOZ season / format / systems / rules in-line with its reputation and status in the Australian Gran Turismo community? What is that 'reputation' ? What is it that 'outsiders' are expecting us to do other than provide weekly racing for a group of like minded race enthusiasts ? Just in GTS there are a multitude of options for drivers including the Sunday League, and other 'events' set up by members. These include (but arent limited to) weekly sprint races, special enduro events with tuning and BOP adjustments. I know of many other leagues that have either folded, or are struggling in maintaining numbers running tune races, and longer formats. Watching some of the streams, 90 minute races with 8 cars and lap times 4 or 5 seconds apart dont exactly get the juices flowing for a lot of drivers.

    4. Rules and Stewards groups (sporting code) - This is the bane of any sporting group, and i do appreciate the efforts you took in the past to clean this up. TBH, i think this is something that has become way over complicated in the interest of us trying to cover all bases and keeping everyone happy. The end game of the stewards group will almost always end with one of the 2 parties feeling aggrieved, and that wont matter if you have a basic set of rules with things added as required, or something written by the FIA lawyers in which case you still generally get 1 of the 2 parties aggrieved at the result ! At the moment i can only speak to the PCARS2 stewards group where we, as a group, have ALWAYS tried to act with the greatest of transparency and fairness. This is also the core desire for the guys in GTS. In PCARS2 All parties involved in any protest are notified, all are asked of their opinion on what happened in 'said incident', and those opinions are validated or refuted based on video evidence supplied by those parties or others that have that video available to them . In PCARS we dont use the penalty table you referenced because as a group we didnt feel it gave enough wriggle room for the many shades of grey that most incidents have. Those grey areas are caused by things such as lag/latency, lap 1 / pack racing incidents, intent and redressing / acceptance of causing an accident and the race situation at the time of the incident. I have to say that there have been very few issues with this method since we took it on, with the reasons the stewards group came up with its decision at the core of that, and those decisions made public with video evidence provided to all to explain how we came to that decision.

    We could have the best drivers code in the world, but the end game is still the same. If drivers cause an accident / incident there is a league expectation that said driver will redress. If they choose not to redress, then there would be an expectation that there is a protest lodged through the stewards group that would make a decision without favour. Again, the most rigorous set of rules in the world would still have 1 of the 2 parties feeling off about the result. Just listening to the F1 commentary team at each race will highlight this on numerous occasion where experienced / seasoned F1 drivers will disagree on penalties that are handed down. Should we also reference SUPERCARS where SVG spun Waters just last week at Townsville... The result from the stewards group was very different to my interpretation sitting on my couch...

    At the end of the day we are a small, local race league that for the most part gets decisions right when it comes to protests. The more complicated we make it, the more difficult it becomes to those in the stewards groups to come up with a decision at the expense of their time and effort, as volunteers.

    5. Entry fees. We have steered well clear of this due to the complication of collecting money and then distributing to the 'winners' at the end of the season. We do have the 'Gold Member' donation of $10 per year which gives members some ownership of the site through that donation. It covers our server costs, and we have spoken about using any excess funds to pay for prizes or 'other' types of incentives for members. Remember too, all drivers who participate in 5 of the 7 rounds in the current format are eligible for the prize draw, where prizes are supplied by our sponsors. We feel this gives ALL participants the chance to win a great prize, regardless of their finishing position in their division. These prizes are open to all our platforms for that season, IE GTS, PCARS2, F1 (when it was running), ACC, Dirt Rally and the PC guys. I know of a few leagues that have offered up prize money, only to have numbers dwindle when the same drivers keep winning the $$ due to their 'alien' abilities.

    6. Driver relegation / promotion - This already happens in the pCARS2 leagues. Drivers who win their division are promoted, with drivers who clearly struggled in their division are slotted down where possible to give them a group of racers at the same level (roughly). The issue in PCARS2 is that some people suit certain car / track seasons, so while they may shine in one season, some actually struggle the following season in a different car. (except Slambo... that bloke is quick in anything!)
    I believe that the GTS guys are going down a different route for div placement this upcoming season, so we will have to wait and see if that works for them.

    7. Race team selection - TBH i have no idea how the guys do it GTS these days. In PCARS2 we have a draft where only 2 drivers are 'drafted' by rival teams, so the overwhelming number of drivers stay in their teams for a few seasons at least. the only way they are poached are if another team feels that drafting them in their 2 draft choices will give them a better result over the season. In our mind at least, this has worked really well for the last few seasons, with only 10 drivers changing between the 5 teams. All new drivers are then drafted by captains into gaps they have in their roster. Overall, this has worked very well.

    8. Non fixed setups - is largely in my experience a league killer. Why ? For the drivers that are time poor, not having a setup that helps them compete to their best is a real turn off. In the seasons we have tried tuning, buy half season grid numbers are low because people feel they have no way of being competitive. That said, ACC on PS4 will be going town the tuning path as there is no other option. We are hopeful that we can maintain a good size grid in both servers moving forward. For our Sunday night series in PCARS2 we will be remaining a NO TUNE series, at least until there is an overwhelming request from the bulk of the drivers.

    9. Promotional Activities - The GTS div 1 season was live streamed with commentary for a while... (im unsure if that is still happening. The Div 1 room in PCARS2 has been broadcast this season live on Youtube and Twitch. There are also members that stream their race live, this is however done without commentary (except for the views of the driver doing the stream). We are active on Facebook when we can with race results, new events and promoting our sponsors.

    10. Format change - Why do we run a 7 week season ? In short this gives us 4 seasons a year, all in school term where we have the highest availability of drivers. In the past when there have been run overs in to holidays, drivers with family were away on holiday and unable to be on the grid. Small grids are a real bummer, and for those there its not great running around with 6 or 7 cars for a race. In PCARS2, just 2 seasons ago we tried a non tune, GT3 season where we used 4 different models of car (Porsche / Ferrari / Bentley and NSX) for a change up. In short the season was a success, and ultimately the best drivers rose to the top. The Bentley was like driving a brick, but on occasion it was still fighting for race wins and podiums through the divs.
    - 7 weeks has worked well as its a relatively short period for drivers who dont like the car of choice. They know that it wont be long before a new car is up that may suit them better...At the moment, most of the guys in PCARS2, even if they dont particularly like the car choice, have been showing up for the racing. Not withstanding the occasional race incident, we have a great group of guys in the Pcars league who not only enjoy the racing, but enjoy hanging out. Im sure for the most part the guys in GTS would be experiencing (for the most part) the same thing.

    I suppose given i have responded to all, or most of your questions, with a reason why we do it the way we do, rather than an alternative it can only mean 1 of 2 things ! What we are doing is largely working and as i said earlier we dont need to reinvent the wheel. Numbers in the Sunday league would possibly indicate that. If on the other hand people believe we should have 3 or 4 times the numbers, and that is achievable through bulk changes to the formats and general philosophy of ROOZ then maybe its time for the current mod teams in each format/platform to step aside for others to make that happen?

    If someone came to me and said im going to triple your numbers, put the time in on social media to quadruple our footprint, come up with stewarding system that is perfect every time and change the formats so that every driver has their best ever race experience i would gladly hand the keys over and wish them all the best !

    Im thirsty, time to go to the pub !
    Stu
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  6. Crunch

    Crunch Team Driver

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    First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their responses.

    Everyone made a valuable contribution and gave lots of consideration to my OP.

    I haven't got any specific agenda with this thread, or any specific questions or answers that I'm seeking. I just started writing and spewed a lot of my thoughts on page.

    --
    I'd like to preface by saying a lot of what I said was based upon my transition from GT Sport to iRacing over the last two months. I've seen 'the other side' first hand, and while I knew 'the other side' was good, I am sort of stunned by how superior leagues on iRacing are over what ROOZ currently is. That is the fundamental thrust of my post: ROOZ could be dominating the Gran Turismo scene in Australia and New Zealand even more than it currently is. There seems to be either conservatism or complacency at this league. Leagues on iRacing are separated by the specific car or series they run, and there is a clear hierarchy in these leagues. I am not versed in these leagues enough to actually provide links and provide facts here, but in the iRacing community, drivers know which is the best NASCAR league, the best IndyCar league, the best F1 league, the best V8 Supercars league, etc. And by 'best', I mean 'most esteemed'. The leagues that are able to secure high quality sponsors are the ones with consistently the highest presentation, social media presence, and the fastest drivers in those respective cars/series. I fully acknowledge that an Australian league cannot compete with a 'worldwide' consumer base - I get it.

    I re-iterate however, the Gran Turismo side of ROOZ (of which I am solely talking about, because I am not a part of the other communities) should be taking more notes and inspiration of what other leagues are doing. The quality of racing at ROOZ may be good, but the quality of product compared to other Australian GT leagues is lacking. That is my only point, and I remember saying at the time of GT6 that ROOZ should be evolving and expanding with GT Sport but it seems to me that GT Sport has left ROOZ behind. The FIA races have brought the spectacle and shifted the focus of Gran Turismo away from ROOZ which originally held this with the two prior entries alongside GT Academy. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that the FIA races are remotely a 'rival' league or something to compete against, but I am saying that ROOZ has been in prime position at the top of the hierarchy akin to the iRacing leagues I referred to above, yet ROOZ continues to behave like a backmarker league.

    It is a 100% acceptable response that ROOZ has been successful for so long due to the no-frills and barebones service. That can be the end of the present discussion if that is acceptable to all who are reading this. The purpose of my post was purely just logging on at a whim and basically saying "Hey guys, look what's going on out in the wide world of sim racing! These rivals leagues are doing (this specific aspect) better than us, I think we should look into it and/or discuss it."

    -----

    I made a nuanced response to all the ideas suggested but I lost it all after I got logged out. I feel physically sick having lost about an hour of work.

    So I'm going to be a lot shorter now with the responses:

    Point 1:
    Viperzed understood the idea best. It's not about the prize money, but just a nominal entry fee like any other social club, like basketball etc. It creates community and means that when you know your competitors paid to enter you show a little more respect.

    I don't believe $5 four times a year is too much.

    Point 2:
    This wasn't addressed much or at all. I wasn't questioning the fairness, I am suggesting a central document. (gosh it pains me to be so cursory when I wrote multiple paragraphs about this and every other point)

    Point 3:
    Let's do it if everyone is for it.
    Maybe divs 1 - 3 have lists of drivers, div 4+ don't. Drivers can withdraw from a season without penalty until x number of rounds then they are locked in for relegation.

    Point 4:
    Teams should allow people to race with their friends not just random rosters elected by the captain. Create a history for the teams that are meaningful instead of just names.

    Point 5:
    I like Stigs idea about a single round of tuning. It means a surprise winner could result, not too much work for people due to it only be one round.

    Point 6:
    I'm not seeking some sort of revolution with the stewarding system. The system works, just consult the community to make sure the system is still in line with community expectations because it's been 4 years since the last review.
    Read my essay: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7JjwFKoQX4-VXB0VzdpYWVnWHM/view?usp=sharing

    Point 7:
    It helps everything. My dad raced this season at ROOZ because I sent him a livestream video of me here. Looks professional to prospective new members. Ensures talking points about the racing not just banter. Podcasts are cool - they work as they look good to have rather than the value they bring as content.

    Point 8:
    Wasn't all about the dual car idea but glad it was discussed. Primary reason not to have is balancing, but still think it doesn't matter if unbalanced as long as every car is best for at least on round. Provides character and talking points for pre-season and during season. Cars don't need to be balanced. Cars have strengths and weaknesses. People who pick different cars are legendary memelords: link
    Link 2:
    https://m.twitch.tv/emree/clip/ScaryElegantLapwingSeemsGood

    Nothing wrong with having two cars available and the entire grid picks one of them.

    New point 9:
    Drop the drop rounds.

    ----

    I feel so ill having lost of that work.... Just know it was riveting, but probably for the best that know my post is readable and not drowned in rubbish.

    I wrote stuff about the reputation of ROOZ, not having any of the answers, not even asking questions but just providing talking points, flirting with starting my own league and deciding there's not enough incentive, yadda yadda yadda.

    Basically, ROOZ is great but can improve and learn lots from other leagues.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, and that I listed these talking points out of convenience and not because I expect all or any of them to be implemented. Just easier to spew them all instead of introduce one by one. I still think they are good ideas. But unfortunately you won't gleam that from this cursory version of my post because I lost it all. Re. tuning, I conceded it would be a bad idea to implement for a full season and would destroy everything, for example of lots of things you will never read, lol.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  7. Max Gassit

    Max Gassit Rookie Gold Member

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    Great showing of thoughtfulness and care. Well done by the authors.
    I like the idea of 1 round as a tuned set up.
  8. apex2691

    apex2691 Team Driver

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    Point 8, I think is worth more consideration.
    In the Manufacturer Series, one make does not dominate, it is very evenly spread. I think a multi car series is very possible in GTS just using the in game BOP. Smart track selection would be the main key to its success. Drivers could test cars if tracks were listed prior to the season, and choose the car they want, totally open within the Group category chosen.
    Could end up with 1 car, but most have favorite car/s, so it could also morph by default into a mini manufacturer series.
    Save the work of a car vote and track vote thread too. Tracks already chosen, we choose our car.
    UrsineSaturn9 and emmo46 like this.
  9. UrsineSaturn9

    UrsineSaturn9 Professional Gold Member

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    +1 for ROOZ manufacturers series. Gr.4 BOP is more problematic than Gr.3. Tyre wear can't be too low either or the FF's will dominate. Limiting number of seats per manufacturer would be good as well so have representation from all manufacturers, perhaps put up your top 3 preferences and drivers are selected from each pool at random.
    Xtr3meNZer and apex2691 like this.
  10. Kieran_B33

    Kieran_B33 Team Driver

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    I dont think this would work as intended, there's always whinging that FFs in Gr4 are OP from the general GTS community.
    If we were to do a "manufacturers series" we should limit it to 1 drivetrain only.
    UrsineSaturn9 likes this.
  11. UrsineSaturn9

    UrsineSaturn9 Professional Gold Member

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    Or fiddle with BOP, which is more time consuming. And FF are not OP if tyre wear is high enough
  12. KoAStR

    KoAStR Like a bowss Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    Lots of good ideas. Yeah of course it could be bigger and better, but comparing iRacing to ROOZ is comparing a business to a hobby, serious versus social, employees versus volunteers.
    apex2691 likes this.
  13. Viperzed

    Viperzed Professional Gold Member

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    As much as I'd like this to be true, It blatantly isn't. FIA Manufacturers series is one of the most corrupt and misbalanced series ever seen. Some manufacturers simply have no chance of ever being competitive or are always there or there abouts but never a race winner. In theory it could work but would require the most careful planning of track selection ever. I don't trust a single member of this community to pick out those tracks to get a perfect balance that wouldn't disadvantage any given manu, not even our precious @KeedenMcdonald
    Take into account the amount of testing required if you want a serious crack at a title, Fuel numbers, tire wear, battling capability, all more variables that people have no time to check for. Rooz is famous / infamous for being an arrive and drive sunday league, single make racing is the only way to ensue it stays that way.
    Bluemoon and Kieran_B33 like this.
  14. Hatfield

    Hatfield GT Sport League & Teams Championship Organiser Team Raceonoz Gold Member Super ROOZ

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    To be fair, multi car league arrive and drive may work sometimes if the new fluid-rooms rules work well as drivers of similar pace should be grouped together. If slower drivers get an advantage due to the car, they would move up, driving with driver/car combinations of similar pace again.
    But it can create whining if you get stuck with the slower car and can't make a pass on the guy ahead